This dis­cus­sion fol­lows from Lucas Introna’s pre­sen­ta­tion of his draft paper Algorithms, Performativity and Governability,” and respons­es from Matthew Jones and Lisa Gitelman. A record­ing of Gitelman’s response is unavail­able, but her writ­ten com­ments are avail­able on the Governing Algorithms web site.

Solon Barocas: Thanks so much. I will offer Lucas the oppor­tu­ni­ty to respond, if he cares to?

Lucas Introna: Yeah, I just want to be clear that I’m not say­ing that the details of the algo­rithms are irrel­e­vant. In a way they can mat­ter very much, and you know, in a cer­tain cir­cum­stance, in a cer­tain sit­u­at­ed use, it might mat­ter sig­nif­i­cant­ly what the algo­rithm does but we can’t say that a pri­ori. So we need to both open up the algo­rithms, we need to under­stand them as much as pos­si­ble, but we must not be seduced to believe that if we under­stand them there­fore we know what they do. That’s the shift, that’s the dan­ger­ous shift.

So for exam­ple I think it’s real­ly rel­e­vant that I know that in the Turnitin detec­tion sys­tem, it essen­tial­ly uses a cer­tain tech­nique for iden­ti­fy­ing the sequence of char­ac­ter strings. And because I know that, I can under­stand how cer­tain edit­ing pro­ce­dures by stu­dents when they write over their text, how that might make them either detectable not detectable. And that helps me to under­stand the sort of per­for­ma­tiv­i­ty that might flow from the actu­al use of that. So I do think know­ing the algo­rithm is nec­es­sary, but it’s irre­ducible, of course. 

I think the point about the prox­ies is real­ly valid. And I did­n’t sort of make the point at the end but I think there is a real issue with the fact that we will only know… Yeah. We’re all in the same space of igno­rance, as it were. And we will only know what we gov­ern when we engage with it. And when we engage with it, we will of course also be enact­ing changes and there would be a response to that, etc. So in a sense gov­er­nance is exper­i­men­ta­tion in a cer­tain way. So there’s a cer­tain exper­i­men­ta­tion that is implied in gov­ern­ing, which I think was a good point you [Matthew Jones] made. 

Barocas: Great. So I should have men­tioned that peo­ple can line up. I’ll take ques­tions from the floor. And just in the inter­est of time I’m actu­al­ly going to take two at a time, and we’ll let the respon­dents han­dle them in one go. So, please.

Audience 1: Okay, two at a time. This is relat­ed to the know­ing the algo­rithm and being gov­erned by algo­rithms. I just want­ed to point out sort of an ana­logue. Right now it’s poten­tial­ly pos­si­ble that we can catch every sin­gle time you speed going down the high­way. Every sin­gle time you go over 65, I can put a black box recorder and tick­et you every sin­gle time. The sec­ond your park­ing meter goes off, I can tick­et you. And that’s going to be very very very pos­si­ble when cam­eras are three dol­lars and you have these pro­gres­sive things. 

Here’s the ques­tion. I was talk­ing to you, Solon, about this. What is our desired sphere of obscu­ri­ty? Or non-scrutinizability? Do we want to guar­an­tee our­selves a cer­tain amount of law­break­ing? One of the things the algo­rithms— More data is avail­able about us. You say you can read into a per­son­’s per­son­al pref­er­ences because it’s now exposed. Before we had obscu­ri­ty because we just did­n’t know. Now, do we want to try and guar­an­tee some lev­el of obscu­ri­ty for peo­ple, some free­dom like that? It’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly the algo­rith­m’s fault, it’s because the data is now avail­able for the algo­rithms to use. This can be used in many spheres, not just search. We can now put cam­eras and watch every­body work­ing, all your work email is mon­i­tored, we can do app mon­i­tor­ing. We do— But com­pa­nies choose not to look at it because they don’t want to know. And that’s what kind of cre­ates this sphere now. But I don’t know how we would address that. How do we cre­ate you know, a sphere of obscurity?

Lev Manovich: Lev Manovich, pro­fes­sor of com­put­er sci­ence, CUNY Graduate Center. So, my ques­tion is about what I see as maybe the key kind of dimen­sion of this day so far, with trans­paren­cy ver­sus opac­i­ty, and I think your notion of flux con­nects to that. So as it was already point­ed out, right, no real soft­ware sys­tem involves a sin­gle algo­rithm, right. There are hun­dreds of algo­rithms. Plus servers, plus data­bas­es. So that’s one chal­lenge. The sec­ond chal­lenge, the sys­tems are very com­plex, right. So Gmail’s about 50 mil­lion lines of code. You know, Windows, hun­dred mil­lion lines of code. So, no sin­gle pro­gram­mer can actu­al­ly exam­ine it. 

But I want to point out with her chal­lenge, which I think is kin­da the ele­phant in the room because I haven’t heard any­body address it so far. Most…a very large pro­por­tion of con­tem­po­rary soft­ware systems—search engines, rec­om­men­da­tion sys­tems, reser­va­tion sys­tems, pric­ing systems…they’re not algo­rithms in a con­ven­tion­al sense where there’s a set of instruc­tions, you can under­stand them. So, even if you pub­lish those algorithms…it does­n’t do you any good because we use what in com­put­er sci­ence is called super­vised machine learn­ing. Meaning that there is a set of inputs, it goes into a black box, and the black box pro­duces out­put, and in some cas­es there’s a for­mal mod­el. In most cas­es, because those black box­es turn out to be more effi­cient when we don’t pro­duce a for­mal mod­el, right, you don’t know how a deci­sion has been made. [indis­tinct] with neur­al net­works net­works [indis­tinct] it becomes much worse. 

So basi­cal­ly, mil­lions of soft­ware sys­tems in our soci­ety are these black box­es where there is noth­ing to see, right. Even if you tried to make them trans­par­ent. And that I think was kind of the ele­phant in the room which I hope you can address. So things are much more seri­ous and dark than we imagined.

Introna: Yeah. So yeah, the issue of the sphere of obscu­ri­ty I think is a real­ly impor­tant one. Because one of the areas of research I’m inter­est­ed in is pri­va­cy. And one of the clas­si­cal argu­ments for pri­va­cy is that we need pri­va­cy for auton­o­my because in a sense if we have obscu­ri­ty, if we have spaces where we’re not observed, we feel free to act in the ways which we would want to act. But if we are aware— I mean, this is this Foucauldian point. The point of the panop­ti­con is that if we’re always observed, then we inter­nal­ize that obser­va­tion to the point that we observe our­selves on the behalf of the oth­ers. And nor­mal­ize our­selves. And so in a sense, as we become tracked, profiled— 

I mean, I felt— You know, the point about the Amazon…if I got to Amazon and I want to buy a book and I go to the bot­tom and I look oth­er peo­ple who bought this book also looked at these titles,” I look at those titles and I think hmm, maybe I should be read­ing those things. Maybe there’s some­thing in them that I’m miss­ing. And I’m start­ing to con­form, to become, the per­son in that strange cat­e­go­ry of peo­ple who read you know X and Y, etc. So, there’s a cer­tain sense in which I become nor­mal­ized through these sys­tems, and I do think there is a point that we need, a zone of obscu­ri­ty. In the new EU reg­u­la­tions there’s a whole data pro­tec­tion reg­u­la­tion. There’s whole issue of what they called the right to be for­got­ten,” yeah? And I think this tries to speak to that but that’s deeply problematic. 

I think the issue of machine learn­ing is obvi­ous­ly very absolute­ly cor­rect. I mean, one of the areas of research that Helen and I have done is look­ing at facial recog­ni­tion sys­tems. And one of the things that the research has shown is that facial recog­ni­tion sys­tems are bet­ter at iden­ti­fy­ing dark-skinned peo­ple than white-skinned peo­ple. And you know, you can imag­ine how that might play out in terms of race and so forth. And so we asked the pro­gram­mers, the peo­ple, why. And they said, Well we don’t know,” right. So we have these sets, these algo­rithms learn through being exposed to these sets. You know, we can open the box, but there are just these lay­ers of vari­ables and you know, we don’t know why but for some oth­er rea­son they are bet­ter at iden­ti­fy­ing dark-skinned peo­ple than— We have a hypoth­e­sis, we have some sug­ges­tions why that might be the case but we just don’t know. Yeah, so I do agree that that’s a real­ly seri­ous issue. 

Jones: I’ll just say one thing I think that’s chal­leng­ing in think­ing through the issue of obscu­ri­ty is that…many peo­ple who have strong intu­itions about per­son­al pri­va­cy out­side the realm of think­ing about these algo­rithms don’t real­ly have very good intu­itions about how eas­i­ly that obscu­ri­ty can be destroyed by [traces?]. And I think it means that in think­ing about obscu­ri­ty and pri­va­cy we also need to think about what it is that con­sent is when peo­ple don’t have an imag­i­na­tion of what is pos­si­ble because of extreme­ly pow­er­ful algo­rithms. And I think part of a dis­cus­sion and indeed part of an infor­ma­tion­al role that peo­ple like the group here can have is to begin to under­stand that there’s some­thing very dif­fer­ent about con­sent, in all sorts of ways. That we might all agree on the sort of pri­va­cy, but that’s eas­i­ly vio­lat­ed through us con­sent­ing to things that seem to us per­fect­ly triv­ial but have turned out not to be. That were triv­ial fif­teen years ago that aren’t today.

Gitelman: Yeah, maybe I’ll riff on that for one sec­ond, on the ques­tion of the sphere of obscu­ri­ty. Because I’ve always won­dered about the speed­ing ques­tion. You know, because we’ve had turn­pikes for a long time, and E‑ZPass for a lit­tle while. And I think you know, it actu­al­ly would not take an algo­rithm to catch us all speed­ing, it’d just take a sub­trac­tion prob­lem. You know, because we go a cer­tain dis­tance and we get through with our tick­et on the turn­pike in too short an amount of time. So I guess what I’m say­ing is that as much as I’m you know, embrac­ing all the intri­ca­cies of this con­ver­sa­tion about algo­rithms from its very mul­ti­dis­ci­pli­nary per­spec­tives, we also can’t let the prob­lem of algo­rithms get mys­ti­fied to the extent that it obscures us from see­ing things we can see with­out the ques­tion of algo­rithms, too, just a lit­tle sub­trac­tion problem.

Jones: Yeah, my first cal­cu­lus text­book in fact had the use of the mean val­ue the­o­rem to catch speed­ers, I remember.

Barocas: Right, the next two.

Daniel McLachlan: Hi, I am Daniel McLachlan. I’m a tech­nol­o­gist at The Boston Globe. It seems like in a lot of these dis­cus­sions of algo­rithms and gov­er­nance, a lot of the con­cerns that come up are con­cerns that exist about large orga­ni­za­tions and large bureau­cra­cies even with­out, or sort of before algo­rithms enter into the dis­cus­sion. And the increase in the usage and the pow­er of algo­rithm seems to have two main effects. I mean, the first is obvi­ous­ly that it allows to the­o­ret­i­cal­ly catch every speed­er. It sort of mul­ti­plies the pow­er of the bureau­cra­cy. But on the oth­er hand, I’m inter­est­ed in teas­ing out what your thoughts are on how the at least notion­al trans­paren­cy of the algo­rithm is an object, as opposed to a kind tan­gle of roles and rules enact­ed by peo­ple in an orga­ni­za­tion change how those orga­ni­za­tions behave and how peo­ple envi­sion them. Does it make it…you know, does it help or does it hurt?

Daniel Schwartz-Narbonne: Hi, I’m Daniel Schwartz-Narbonne. I’m a post-doc here at Courant. I already intro­duced myself. So, cou­ple things. First of all, when you had your bub­ble sort algo­rithm are you sure it should­n’t be a less-than or equal to in the for loop? [audi­ence laughs]

And sec­ond of all, a lot of the stuff that peo­ple have been talk­ing about has been…you know, these are prob­lems that have already exist­ed, right. Law is an algo­rithm. When the IRS decide you know, will they allow this par­tic­u­lar tax dodge or not, and then the lawyers come up with some new way around it, they’re actu­al­ly play­ing off an algo­rithm that’s sim­ply imple­ment­ed in a human head instead imple­ment­ed on a com­put­er. And I think the real dif­fer­ence is not you know, are we deal­ing with algo­rithms or not. The real dif­fer­ence is the rel­a­tive cost of doing var­i­ous things.

So, there’s a lot of stuff where we nev­er real­ly wor­ried about it because it was­n’t…prac­ti­cal, right. We did­n’t wor­ry about the huge amount of infor­ma­tion that was in some gov­ern­ment data­base because you lit­er­al­ly had to send some guy to go pho­to­copy it to get it out and so that was not a risk to your pri­va­cy. And now that it’s on the Web and you can scrape it, that same data is now a risk to pri­va­cy because the cost of get­ting it is a lot low­er. And in gen­er­al the costs are drop­ping, and just an exam­ple with the deanonymiza­tion— I don’t know if peo­ple are famil­iar with deanonymiz­ing the Netflix data. But Netflix released their data in order to allow peo­ple to have a com­pe­ti­tion to improve their rec­om­mender algo­rithm, and it turned out that you can actu­al­ly fig­ure out who peo­ple are from sim­ply a list of what movies they watched at what times and what rank­ings they gave them, and then use this to pre­dict oth­er movies by look­ing at things like peo­ple’s blogs. So, the abil­i­ty to col­lect all this data has become huge. And that I think is real­ly the big ques­tion we have to look at you know, as the cost of doing things is chang­ing. But the fun­da­men­tal ques­tion of deal­ing with algo­rithms does­n’t seem to me to have real­ly changed from when we were deal­ing with the law. 

Introna: Yeah, those are two real­ly good points. I think your point is almost an answer to the per­son before you. And that is, what’s the dif­fer­ence, what changed? We always have had bureau­cra­cies and we’ve always been con­cerned about these things. But you know, in algo­rithms, because the cost of doing it has reduced so sig­nif­i­cant­ly for exact­ly that reason—the issue of elec­tron­ic vot­ing, for exam­ple. Why are we so con­cerned? People would say Well you know, when we had paper vot­ing, peo­ple could also rig the elec­tion so why have we got all these hugely-complex process­es to try and ver­i­fy the algo­rithm for the elec­tron­ic vot­ing, you know? We don’t have these huge process­es when we do paper vot­ing.” Well yeah, but you can not real­ly rig the elec­tion if you have a cou­ple of peo­ple get togeth­er and— You know you, it’s quite cost­ly to go and find the bal­lot papers, get hold of them ille­gal­ly, then put all the cross­es on and get them all in the box. It’s quite a com­plex process. Whereas if you get to the algo­rithm, you could change the elec­tion. I mean, you could change a mil­lion votes in…a click. So you know, the cost is real­ly the issue. And because that is the case, it real­ly mat­ters where these algo­rithms sit, what they do, etc. So, I think your sort of point is almost an answer to his, the rel­a­tive cost point.

Jones: I would just say one of the things that I did­n’t com­ment on in Lucas’ paper but I did in my writ­ten thing is that it’s enor­mous­ly help­ful in mak­ing us look very c—of not fetishiz­ing the algo­rithm. That is, in many cas­es things we’re going to claim are dif­fer­ences of scale. And the place where we need to look is the mate­r­i­al and social con­di­tions under which these algo­rithms are being deployed. And that’s where the con­ti­nu­ity with say, bureau­crat­ic or legal pro­ce­dure— And I think that’s enor­mous­ly ana­lyt­i­cal­ly and very prac­ti­cal­ly impor­tant. It’s also impor­tant to get at those moments pre­cise­ly when there has to be some­thing dif­fer­ent about how we think of them, those moments in which the fact that it is some­thing being done with com­put­ers and [indis­tinct] is qual­i­ta­tive­ly dis­tinct from what might’ve hap­pened with bureau­crat­ic pro­ce­dure. I sus­pect there are few­er of those than we expect. Because it’s easy to get caught up in the tech­no­log­i­cal deter­min­ist nar­ra­tive of the neces­si­ty of these sorts of things. But I think it focus­es our atten­tion on the one hand on what is it that enables algo­rithms and mate­r­i­al con­di­tions, and then on those spe­cial exam­ples, what is dis­tinct about them. And I think that’s impor­tant, both ana­lyt­i­cal­ly and then very practically.

Nick Seaver: Hi, I’m Nick Seaver again. Thanks for a bunch of real­ly inter­est­ing papers. I have a ques­tion about anoth­er thing that is an old ques­tion but feels some­times knew about exper­tise. And it was real­ly inter­est­ing to me to hear how all three of you touched upon this knowl­edge ques­tion. I think Matthew you stat­ed it very straight­for­ward­ly in even if they hand­ed us the algo­rithm, we would­n’t know it in any way that real­ly mat­ters.” And what that gets at seems like to me is this ques­tion that sort of ani­mates a lot of this dis­cus­sion in that we’ve got two dif­fer­ent camps of exper­tise, right. You’ve got peo­ple who know algo­rithms, and peo­ple who know soci­ety, law, what­ev­er, ethics on the oth­er hand. And we want to some­how bridge this gap between these two sets of peo­ple. And per­son­al­ly I won­der whether that assump­tion is unfound­ed and that you’ve got inter­est­ing eth­i­cal and legal think­ing that hap­pens on the side of them, and you’ve got inter­est­ing sort of algo­rith­mic think­ing that hap­pens on the side of us. But I’m also won­der­ing what that means for say, when speak­ing as a we” on the like ethics, what­ev­er, side, want to talk about algo­rithms, what do we make of these claims to exper­tise about what they are like, and about how they work? And how do we sort of recon­fig­ure our ques­tion say, for exam­ple if it turns out that the bub­ble sort algo­rithm per se may not actu­al­ly be what we mean when we say I care about the Google algo­rithm” or some­thing like that. How do we rede­fine our ques­tions in response to this sort of pre­sumed exper­tise of others?

Helen Nissenbaum: Hi, I’m Helen Nissenbaum, NYU MCC and ILI. This is more an invi­ta­tion to reflect on what I’m call­ing a defense that says it’s bet­ter than noth­ing.” And that is the way in order to run cer­tain expe­ri­ences through the algo­rithms we have, we have to per­form the reduc­tion that Lisa talks about. And then we find that the results are good—like you know, take Turnitin. All these mil­lions of doc­u­ments it’s able to adju­di­cate. And it’s true that it may not cap­ture all the pla­gia­rists, but it’s gonna cap­ture many of them, so isn’t that bet­ter than noth­ing? And we have—you know, even say with the facial recog­ni­tion study that you men­tioned, Lucas, you might say well okay, so it rec­og­nizes dark­er faces bet­ter than lighter faces, but at least it’s rec­og­niz­ing faces, so what’s the prob­lem? And I think it also gets to the ques­tion that Sasha was ask­ing last night of Claudia Perlich, and that is Claudia was say­ing well, we only get say a 4% bump in accu­ra­cy by doing this entire back­end machin­ery and then tar­get­ing. But that’s good enough for me. You know, that can make my busi­ness run. 

So I think these are issues of jus­tice at root, but I still don’t know how we’re gonna defend our­selves against this rejoin­der that these algo­rithms, as imper­fect as they are are bet­ter than nothing.

Introna: Yeah. That’s what my col­leagues tell me all the time when I don’t want to use Turnitin. I think it’s… You know I— Well… We can use Turnitin after we’ve had the debate on why we’re doing this. Which we don’t do, we just use the tech­nol­o­gy. And that’s the prob­lem for me. The bet­ter than noth­ing” is… What’s inter­est­ing about the defense for Turnitin some of my col­leagues have is they say the rea­son why we use this is because the non-native speak­ers, when they pla­gia­rize, when they copy, we can iden­ti­fy it eas­i­ly because we can see there’s a change in the style of the writ­ing. But the native speak­ers, they have the lin­guis­tic abil­i­ty to write over the stuff they copy in such a way that it becomes indis­tin­guish­able from the text around it. And there­fore actu­al­ly the rea­son why we should use Turnitin is because it’s fair­er, you know. It’s fair­er because it catch­es every­body equally. 

It seems to me one of the things there is that—and some peo­ple have touched on this—is the idea that there’s sort of a math­e­mat­i­cal or com­pu­ta­tion­al objec­tiv­i­ty. And that this com­pu­ta­tion­al objec­tiv­i­ty some­how is valu­able enough so that you know, it’s bet­ter than noth­ing, we do catch some of them. Yes, but what about the ones we don’t catch? And the con­se­quences for the peo­ple who are caught, against those who are not caught… I mean, in most uni­ver­si­ty sys­tems you get expelled, right? So is this a mat­ter of jus­tice? And is it jus­tice for all? 

So my response to my col­leagues is let’s first have a debate. Let’s under­stand the lim­i­ta­tions of the sys­tem. Let’s under­stand what it does and what it does­n’t do. And if we have that debate, and we then use it, and we can use it in a for­ma­tive way, if we use it in a way that is not puni­tive, that’s not legal­is­tic and we say Let’s use it to iden­ti­fy the stu­dents that copy. Let’s talk to them about copy­ing and why they copy. And let’s use that as an oppor­tu­ni­ty to edu­cate them in terms of the sort of writ­ing that we expect from them,” etc., now that’s a com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent socio­ma­te­r­i­al con­fig­u­ra­tion that we’re putting togeth­er. So yes, I think it can serve a pur­pose, but that pur­pose needs to be under­stood with­in the way in which it oper­ates with­in those sit­u­at­ed practices. 

And sim­i­lar­ly you know, yes, we want to catch peo­ple who speed. But do we under­stand how that tech­nol­o­gy oper­ates? Do we under­stand the con­di­tions under which it oper­ates? Have we had a dis­cus­sion of what we’re real­ly try­ing to do here? Are we real­ly just— Are we try­ing to help peo­ple dri­ve safe­ly, or are we sim­ply try­ing to make mon­ey? And in the UK, most local author­i­ties will tell you speed­ing is a seri­ous form of income for them, and they want speed cam­eras. The more they have the bet­ter because the more mon­ey they make. This is not about road safety. 

So you know, I think what we need to under­stand is the sociotech­ni­cal prac­tices with­in which it oper­ates. Why it oper­ates in the way it does. So yes, bet­ter than noth­ing, but.

Gitelman: I guess I would agree with that. I think the way that we could trans­pose that bet­ter than noth­ing” rejoin­der into a kind of accep­tance of good enough” and there to sort of press the con­ver­sa­tion of if you say good enough for your detect­ing faces or cheats, what’s good, right, and what’s enough? To real­ly kind of push those issues there, the good enough can be a ques­tion of opti­miza­tion. So broad­en that dis­cus­sion and try and get peo­ple engaged, not let­ting a sin­gle ven­dor, say, answer the ques­tion. I think by and large that’s it’s an argu­ment or a dis­cus­sion that we can per­suade peo­ple to have. I mean, I think that we could make some rhetor­i­cal adjust­ments to the bet­ter than noth­ing” that might make a more pro­duc­tive chan­nel there. 

The they/we question…I mean, the oth­er kind of strate­gic, rhetor­i­cal ques­tion that I think is real­ly hard to address. I mean I do, just over the last day and a half to have a kind of an intu­itive response that the they/we…you know, is some­thing that we need to run from, to find ways around. And I mean real­ly this is Helen’s incred­i­ble tal­ent with her co-organizers of putting so many dif­fer­ent peo­ple in the room togeth­er who don’t make a sin­gle they and a sin­gle we. And to some­how sort of go for­ward with that and think strate­gi­cal­ly about how that hap­pens and how that can hap­pen in more settings. 

Jones: Yeah. I would…just com­bin­ing the two ques­tions. I mean, I guess third, what has just been said, that con­sid­er­ing any sit­u­a­tion of some­thing being judged to be good enough, or bet­ter than noth­ing, it’s not that an algo­rithm is nec­es­sar­i­ly neu­tral but it’s prob­a­bly not the right place to look when mak­ing that deci­sion. And that’s ask­ing for the kind of exper­tise of peo­ple who look at socio­ma­te­r­i­al conditions. 

But the exper­tise of the peo­ple who actu­al­ly build algo­rithms I think is also use­ful. It’s the peo­ple in between who cel­e­brate them with­out much under­stand­ing that are the sort of— Because if you ask the peo­ple who build the algo­rithms, or you ask data min—you know, indus­try or machine learn­ing peo­ple, what you get is refresh­ing can­dor about lim­i­ta­tions. The whole field­’s about like, you know, we don’t know… You know, How does this work? We don’t know.” Or these com­pli­cat­ed mod­els. That refresh­ing can­dor, that con­ver­sa­tion, it’s a rich resource for say­ing this is the wrong kind of thing to be doing if we want to reg­u­late this sort of sys­tem. Even if we agreed that it was the val­ue we want­ed to have. 

So I think actu­al­ly get­ting into these dif­fer­ent pock­ets of exper­tise and away from sort of rather unre­flec­tive cel­e­bra­tion or denun­ci­a­tion is going to be more pow­er­ful way to think about this.

Katherine Strandberg: So, Kathy Strandberg from NYU Law School. So I just had two com­ments. One was I thought maybe there would some­thing that could be added to the list of what are we con­cerned about about algo­rithms. Because I think in many but not all cas­es of con­cern about algo­rithms, in addi­tion to the secre­cy con­cern and the auto­mat­ed concern…and maybe even more impor­tant in many cas­es, it is this fact that in many appli­ca­tions algo­rithms are using prob­a­bilis­tic infer­ence to make deci­sions or have impli­ca­tions for indi­vid­u­als. It seems to be that’s some­thing we haven’t real­ly talked about, and that might be okay in some cir­cum­stances and not in others. 

The sec­ond thing I want­ed to do was sug­gest that one con­cept that might be help­ful to us in think­ing about this whole area is a con­cep­tion from eco­nom­ics of cre­dence goods.” So, some­times in the case of algo­rithms, we are in a sit­u­a­tion where we’re get­ting out­put and we don’t know how to eval­u­ate whether this out­put is good or not. So Google says These are the top ten search results” and you know, we don’t know whether we’d like some oth­er arrange­ment of search results bet­ter. We can only say okay, it seemed alright. And that’s actu­al­ly an area that we’ve— So many cas­es I think we’re in that sit­u­a­tion. And that actu­al­ly is a sit­u­a­tion that at least in the law we’ve dealt with quite a bit, but we don’t we’re not think­ing there about… You know, nobody’s too both­ered about the fact they don’t under­stand exact­ly what’s going on inside their tele­vi­sion set, right? Because you know, you see the TV show or you don’t see the show, and it’s work­ing or it isn’t.

So instead of think­ing about tech­nolo­gies like that, I think we should be think­ing about peo­ple like lawyers, and doc­tors, peo­ple who are pro­vid­ing things that even after you get it you can’t real­ly tell whether it was good or not. And legal­ly, we deal with those things in a cou­ple dif­fer­ent ways. So one is cer­tain kinds reg­u­la­to­ry regimes. But one of the big ways that we deal with this kind of issue is through pro­fes­sion­al ethics. And I’m won­der­ing if sort of the fact that that isn’t real­ly hap­pen­ing, or we don’t know how to make that hap­pen with some of these things that real­ly are the equiv­a­lent of cre­dence goods is part of what’s dis­turb­ing us. 

So for exam­ple I think the Turnitin exam­ple is inter­est­ing because if the out­put is pla­gia­rism or not, and we don’t know any­thing about what they’re doing, then it’s a cre­dence good. Once we know they’re count­ing a cer­tain num­ber of char­ac­ters, we might or might not think that’s a good way of mea­sur­ing pla­gia­rism, but we’re in a sit­u­a­tion of we can decide whether we think it’s good—we can eval­u­ate it. 

So…going on for too long. But any­way, I think maybe that point about can we eval­u­ate the out­put is an impor­tant one. 

Barocas: So I’d love to take anoth­er ques­tion but I’m afraid we prob­a­bly have to end there with ques­tions. But please, panel.

Introna: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I absolute­ly agree with you about the prob­a­bilis­tic infer­ence. I think that’s a real­ly impor­tant point. And indeed this is some­thing I think where peo­ple are real­ly con­cer— When you go to Google, you can do the dash­board, right. And you can look at who they think you are. So you go to the dash­board and there’s an option; you can see what are the cat­e­gories under which they have clas­si­fied you. So I went there and I dis­cov­ered that I was a woman. And I was younger than I am. So I thought that’s not a bad clas­si­fi­ca­tion. [audi­ence laughs] But clear­ly that’s what they use to serve me ads. So maybe that’s not such a great idea. So I do think that’s a real­ly impor­tant point. 

The issue of evaluation…yeah. I just think pro­fes­sion­al ethics is not real­ly the way to go. I mean, not that I think there’s a prob­lem with pro­fes­sion­al ethics. But one of my areas of research is busi­ness ethics. And one of the areas in which busi­ness ethics have gone for a long time now is the whole notion of codes of ethics and the idea that orga­ni­za­tions have codes of ethics and that employ­ees sign up for the codes of ethics and so forth. The prob­lem is those very codes of ethics become the way of avoid­ing to do ethics, right. So we can say we have a code of ethics but yet you know, the prac­tices don’t con­form. But if you ques­tion the prac­tices you’ll always be referred back to Well, we have a code of ethics.” So I think pro­fes­sion­al ethics is a com­plex thing, and I don’t think it’s a sort of sim­ple… Well I’m not sug­gest­ing you’re say­ing it’s sim­ple, but I think it’s a very com­plex route and may even become a way of avoid­ing address­ing the issues that we want to address. 

Barocas: Okay. Well I think we’re exact­ly on time. Please join me in thank­ing the pan­el for a good session.